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I'd also be interested in hearing more about your views regarding the role of fats in mito exhaustion. It would seem that polyunsaturated oils would pose the greatest hazard (though Omega 3s fall in this category they should not be avoided, of course) while natural saturated fats (coconut oil) would be the least detrimental: http://www.coconutoil.com/ray_peat_coconutoil.htm

Something I find especially interesting in the article by Ray Peat is that the non-saturated oil in the coconut oil did not succumb to oxidation. I recall reading, somewhere, that a decent amount of healthful saturated fat (coconut) can actually aid in the prevention of the Omega 3's being oxidized.
Olive oil, avocadoes, nuts, etc., would also seem to be solid choices given the fact that they are mostly monounsaturated (and thus, less likely to be oxidized easily).

ref mito exhaustion '....eat too much fat' is this any fat or just the crappy ones, in large amounts please ?

Thanks Mike; very informative and right on about the economic motivation.

As to mitochrondrial exhaustion; yes it is a problem, particularly if you do too much aerobic exercise, eat too much fat, and don't have enough antioxidants in your diet or supplements.

It does seem that you only get so many heart beats, at least this is true across species. Within species, no one really knows but there is that suspicion.

Another paradox, exercise uses heart beats and is dangerous to a small degree in and of iteself. But, it does seem to save you heart beats in the end by lowering your heart rate through the rest of the day and night. Excessive aerobic exercise is particularly hard on the mitochondria, but few will tell you that.

When they become damaged, the membrane leaks free radicals that do more damage.

Art,

I had a conversation on the subject of leptin recently with a fellow who holds a PhD in Biochemistry and he mirrored your comment above that "leptin is way over rated." Essentially, in terms of Regulation in Fuel Metabolism, leptin is not nearly as important as ghrelin. Though leptin and grehlin are both key hormones, and communicators of organism status, they are very much secondary to the key fuel players, like glucose and fats, and are in no way regulatory.
He seemed to have concluded that, despite leptin being an important factor, its importance has nothing to do with fuel metabolism and the main motivation behind the hype appears to be making money via leptin drug development.

Mike

Mr. De Vany

I am interested in any comment you may wish to make about the speculation that mitochondrial exhaustion is the ultimate fate we all face regardless of how healthy a lifestyle we live.

If there is such a condition as mitochondrial exhaustion and if it comes about because the mitochondria can only produce so much energy over a lifetime, wouldn't living at a high rate of energy expenditure ultimately shorten one's life?

I ask this only as a theoretical point; quality of life is more important to me than longevity.

I liken this to a thermostat, always a poor analogy to human metabolism but it is useful here. The sensitivity or gain on the thermostat is poor at low energy expenditure so it doesn't work very well at, say, an expenditure of 1800 calories a day. At 4 or 5000 calories a day, it works pretty well. Again, this would be to prevent an ancestor or even us from ignoring our energy intake when we are expending a lot of energy. So, it is more a fail safe mechanism to prevent under nutrition than it is to prevent over nutrition. Under nutrition is more dangerous than over nutrition, at least in the short run and certainly to an ancestor with uncertain food availability.

Refining the metaphor: I wouldn't say that the sensitivity or gain on the thermostat is poor at low energy expenditure; I would say that the thermostat is hooked up to a heater, but not to an air conditioner.

Arthur:

“The kind of food we eat makes us malnourished and, if it triggers a high insulin release, makes us hungry all over again. Then we eat again and the intake goes over our expenditures. Poor food makes us eat more and take in more calories than we expend, which is the only way to gain weight. Inactivity adds to the problem.”

I agree with this view as long as people eat and drink all the trash they do. Leptin and insulin resistance… My point is that you do not have to care about this when eating a natural diet (palaeolithic). This is good news for the millions of people that due to disease, disabilities or obesity cannot live an active life. The message that they have to exercise vigorously don’t help them. The information that they need to stop manipulating their system with soft drinks, milk and grains etc would help them a lot more but if they do not ever get this information their situation instead seems hopeless..

Rosedale is indeed the expert. As with insulin, obese people become resistant to leptin. And a damaged HPA axis adds to the problem.

Wild animals work for their food, like humans used to. Primates and even carnivores such as cats become obese and insulin resistant when they are confined and over fed. They all will eat beyond their needs and the confinement (low energy expenditure) upsets their appetite mechanism just as it does ours.

Couldn't disagree more on exercise versus diet on weight control. Many experts take this point of view, such as Bouchard, and my own research supports this. I will show some details of my math modeling on this some time in the future.

The kind of food we eat makes us malnourished and, if it triggers a high insulin release, makes us hungry all over again. Then we eat again and the intake goes over our expenditures. Poor food makes us eat more and take in more calories than we expend, which is the only way to gain weight. Inactivity adds to the problem.

Let me say, leptin is way over rated. There may be economic incentives involved because it was thought to be "the next big thing" in weight control. Turns out fat people have loads of leptin, so much that their body ignores the signal.

Wow, perfect timing for my question. My appetite certainly is no good indicator of need. Probably because I screwed it up for so many years eating crap. I've been eating paleo and doing crossfit for 2 months now and I'm still losing weight. I AM NEVER HUNGRY. What I mean is I eat alot and I never deprive myself. I am now down to 187lbs. I want to be gaining around a pound a week and am instead losing two. That adds up to about 1500 calories a day. 1000 just to stop the plunge. I'm hoping once my body composition gets into a good range things will turn around.

For anyone interested, PLEASE see:

http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/1/leptin1.htm

For an excellent and reader friendly discussion on leptin and its effects on health and appetite.

You may also refer to the book The Rosedale Diet, by Ron Rosedale, MD, which is based on reducing leptin and insulin levels and increasing sensitivity to both. I don't agree with everything he says, like it's OK to use Splenda and tofu, but his understanding of metabolic diseases and their causes is unmatched by anyone else I have seen.

Hi Art,

I have been lurking at the page for some weeks and have found it very interesting. I agree with many of your ideas. Especially with the diet part as I eat a Palaeolithic diet very similar to yours since two years. Now this last letter on appetite regulation cannot I agree with at all (June 20). Appetite regulation is a complex system that are only partially known and deserve much more studies. Some hormones for suppressing or increasing appetite are known, though. Leptin is a hormone produced mainly by fat cells and its normal function is to suppress appetite. It seem to work well in a normal surrounding and fat people have been shown to have increased level of leptin (and reduced sensitivity for it). Fat people fail to regulate appetite because they eat a totally unnatural diet. An example is all energy from drinks that do not work well with the system we are designed with. Energy in drinks do not “register” well and thus cheat the intricate appetite regulation system. All people and especially overweight ones should stay with water to drink (not infants of course). Thus we have a system that regulate appetite well AS LONG AS WE EAT NATURAL FOOD. Other abnormalities than energy dense drinks that make appetite regulation fail are probably swings in blood sugar and insulin, that comes from too much fast carbohydrates. Unnaturally energy-dense food as combinations of sugar and fat or other carbs and fat seem also to give problems the appetite regulation. Natural unprocessed foods do not give these problems.

Although training is excellent for fitness and wellbeing it has little to do with weight regulation. With a starvation diet on a fix number of calories (type WW) exercise will worsen the starvation state and make people loose more weight. For people eating a natural diet and let appetite set the intake level, training will make them hungrier and thus compensating for the extra energy needed.

And why should not the human system for appetite work well when virtually all wild animal seem to have an excellent system for it. Animals have a hard life sometimes but not always. They can sometimes experience plenty of food for generations without getting fat (they are also often lazy). When did you see and obese moose, bird of prey, rabbit or wolf the last time? Dogs get fat from the sugar and flour people give them. A totally unnatural food for these creatures. Dogs eating meat do not get fat...

Leptin link: http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/bodyweight/leptin.html

Another subject. I have seen some contradiction in your opinion about the value of lean body mass. In some places you talk about amounts of lean body mass as some measure of health and that getting slimmer is a slow death etc. In another place you seem to be aware of that energy restriction prolongs life (in experimental animal studies, there are many more and the one you mentioned). There is a very interesting correlative study on people that show the “energy restricters” to be very lean and very healthy (Fontana et al. 2004. PNAS 101: 6659–6663). This group has a mean BMI of 19.6 and show extremely good values in all risk factors for atherosclerosis. I know that it is a correlative study with all its drawbacks but have a look at it if you have not seen the study.

Thanks for a nice page and keep up the writing – Otto Katz

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