« Torque and Power in the Golf Swing | Main | Update on The Book and the Blog »

Followup to Torque and Power in the Golf Swing

June 17, 2005 09:48 AM

Just a couple of comments to add to this issue.

1. The model used in the article in Sports Engineering (2002) 5, 23-32 by E. Sprigings and S. Mackenzie neglects gravity. So, it is possible to generate even more power in the down swing than the their model estimates. In most long-hitters, the downswing is a kind of controlled fall, like a pitcher. Let gravity be your friend one of the better long hitters once told me (Gerry James).

If you turn against a firm backleg and pull with your front shoulder along your swing plane, the left side of your body falls forward and around. This is clear in looking at Tiger's or Vijay's swings. The first part of their downswing is a controlled fall.

If you start the downswing with the left shoulder, the torque reaction feeds into the left hip. Even though many teachers say to start with the left hip, it is really the turning of the left shoulder that initiates the turning and forward movement of the left hip. Pulling back and down from the left shoulder makes the front hip rotate and move forward a bit. Then you can just "walk through the swing" to continue the movement of your weight to the left side.

Contrarily, if you start the downswing with the right shoulder the torque reaction pushes you back into a reverse pivot, alters the swing path, and ruins your spine angle. It also makes you jump up onto your toes, ruining your swing radius.

2. Harry Vardon was not the person who devised the Vardon grip now used by so many. He was just one of the better-known players to use it. He was a very long hitter and a great player. His belief was that you can go over trouble with high, long shots -- a very modern view. What is a bit less well known about him is that he bent his left (lead) arm at the elbow in the backswing and extended it in the down swing. This is more like a modern baseball swing. It also adds another joint hinge for generating power. This might be a problem for accuracy, but then again it does promote a more in to out swing path and seems to make it easier to initiate the downswing (really down and around) with the left arm and shoulder. So, there may not be much penalty in accuracy.

When Mark Maguire first broke into the majors, he had a very long swing and a pronounced rolling of the wrists in the release. It was powerful, but not quick and the wrist roll pulled the bat off line. His mature swing was short back and long through, just like Harry Vardon's would have been. They both had bent left elbows. In Mark's case, the hands didn't roll any more at release; he hit through with his hands parallel to one another and to the ground. His extension came from letting the right hand go so the left arm could extend further down the swing path. The bat stays on line much longer this way and the drive through the ball puts more backspin on it so it carries farther.

3. The downswing at 0.34 seconds is Nick Faldo's. I think, say, Sergio Garcia's might take bit less as he has an almost Hogan quality to his club head lag. He, like Hogan, is pound for pound, one of the longest drivers on the tour. The model estimates that a delayed release can add about 5% to the power generated in a swing.

4. Both Ben Hogan and and Mike Austin explained how they put wrist cock and lag into the swing the same way. Austin, a Ph.D. in physiology and legendary long hitter, was very precise: extend the base of the left hand and pull the shaft down with the right index finger. This brings the forearms closer to one another and produces the most acute angle the player is capable of at the wrist link between the forearms and the club shaft.

· Sports

Comments

Posted by: Flower Online [TypeKey Profile Page] at September 12, 2006 4:29 AM

Mr Fu. Thanks that.
Yup.... something you can use, right ?
Unless ones suicidal (and even then jumpers will drive over the Bay bridge to jump off the Golden gate which is truly wondrous vis status seeking perhaps even when contemplating death), that useable and measurable thing will surely be included into your lifes philosophy . yes ?
That was my point.
Probably just semantics
That you're 'here' says it all. Philosophers ( we ) and kids play the same game 'tis tisn't tis tisn't save kids fall over usually and the latter get all tarred up.
Though i don't think you are and hopefully i'm not

I reckon to say otherwise is being less than honest.

We're so bloody spoilt in the West vis what we have access to..even the poorest.. and i think we're jaded cos of it.
We're as Epicurian beasts out of control vis what we want and want it now x 6 billion.

If yee read what Freddie Nietzche ate its no wonder he offed himself !

Posted by: simon FELLOWS at June 19, 2005 12:42 PM

Mr. FELLOWS - (please read quickly, may be overly opinionated or may not meet cleverness standards) I am here (and other places) because I'm looking for something I can use, something measurable and falsifiable. Philosophy is almost never those things. It should be a way to get at the truth, but the 'truth' it usually gets to is self-negating and nihilistic. (I'm speaking here of the modern materialist philosophy primarily) That could be why those two gentelmen killed themselves, sucked into a vortex of their own thoughts.

Posted by: Fugate at June 19, 2005 10:10 AM


Mr Fugat just saw this from the 16th June
"I diligently do not study philosophers or philosophy since I don't want them/it tainting my own thoughts'

Sir if i can say this politely this makes little sense.
And as i make little sense much of the time i can spot it a mile off !

One assumes that we're looking at this blog as we find it stimulating ?
Then we , perhaps, interact with 'it' vis whether we agree or not, question, clarify etc ?
Presumably we're seeking information to live a more informed life ?
So we're seeking to increase our understanding/knowledge/wisdom ?
Isn't philosophy about seeking understanding/knowledge/wisdom ?
I think you'll find it is vis the Greek philosophos

So if you didn't study 'philosophy' concretely you wouldn't be reading this site.

Posted by: simon FELLOWS at June 18, 2005 12:41 AM

Ok, you guys not everything requires a comment. Particularly dumb, ill-informed, or overly opinionated ones. But even these trigger a memory so I am not inclined to cut you off, just ask you to be a bit more restrained (or clever).

The comment about hitting and throwing things reminds me of William Calvin's throwing theory of the development of the human mind. A serious theory of the mind based on the need to throw stones for food, though not very influential.

I see nothing that these add to the blog and am of a mind to ask you to be more restrained and thoughtful.

I happen to not like golf very much, but I do like to solve problems. And I have set the golf swing as one of them.

I am much older than Jack Nicklaus and have not suffered the problems of repetitive injury stress and hard travel and eating that he has. He has had a hip replacement and suffers from diabetes. Other golfers fare only a bit better. It is not a sport for the ages. It is a lovely sport, but to play it at a high level requires too much commitment and repetitive injury stress.

Posted by: Arthur De Vany at June 17, 2005 8:08 PM

Gents what say yee, please ?
Do you think it'd be a fair assumption that the more sensitive and healthy the system is the more benefit it'd get from briefer exercise ?
Sounds akin to what PrADV said ref cal intake and muscle growth.
Yr comments pleasum ?

Posted by: simon FELLOWS at June 17, 2005 2:24 PM

Mr Fugat..superb.

ref The Prof..'don't practise, just play'.
Most excellent for a Friday morning.
Yee could use that to paraphrase life, caveat being its all the same of course.

Posted by: simon FELLOWS at June 17, 2005 1:41 PM

No golf, but who knows what sorts of other games? HGs do play games, like carrying huge logs in long races. It is remarkable that in many sports played today, the number on a team is about the number of prime age men there would have been in a Paleo group of 25 to 30. There was sufficient leisure for games and humans do show a disposition to play them as we retain our playfulness far beyond nearly all other species (neotony).

A golf course is remarkably like the African Savanna, a scene even infants reveal a preference for. I love being on a course because of its beauty. That is why I live on a golf course, so I can see my ancient ancestral home each day.

As to repetitive practice, it is easy. Don't practice, just play. This I much prefer, though I am such a wonk on technique that I do like to experiment on the range now and then.

Posted by: Arthur De Vany at June 17, 2005 12:25 PM

I wonder if paleolithic man played golf? Or, in general, played any organized sport?

Posted by: Elmo at June 17, 2005 11:59 AM

Post a comment

Thanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (sign out)

(If you haven't left a comment here before, you may need to be approved by the site owner before your comment will appear. Until then, it won't appear on the entry. Thanks for waiting.)


Remember me?