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This response to largely to Warner's interesting questions and also touches on Kiti's comments.

There is no way I can consider the hypothesis of poor food choice for hunter-gatherers and it makes little sense even for moderns. Total caloric intake and expenditure account for the change in body mass, lean and fat.

I would agree that poor foods are likely to increase total caloric intake and that is a pathway to increased obesity. That could occur if they become insulin resistant and suffer blood glucose crashes just after eating so they eat again.

The Pima of Mexico actually have a high incidence of diabetes Type 2; it is low only relative to the US Pima, on the order of 24% versus 50% if my memory serves me. Aside from the diets of both groups, neither of which is very good (though the Mexican Pima do eat more vegetables) there is a huge difference in the amount of work they do. The US Pima are sort of kept by our government and do almost no work. The Mexican Pima are lucky enough not to be a kept group and work fairly hard on their farms.

The incidence and dynamics of starvation are extremely complex and poorly understood. It is not so much starvation that gets you but diseases from undernutrition. People differ greatly in their stores of essential nutrients, even at the same mass. A vegetarian would likely be one of the earliest to go since their liver has low stores of many nutrients. Organ failure is another cause that is more linked to initial health than to the degree of body fat.

One of the most unfavorable positions to be in would be to have little lean muscle mass and a lot of fat. Your organs would shut down from lack of amino acids long before you ran out of energy.

And, I think Kiti is right about survival time with respect to fat mass, for some of the reasons I list above. It is not just the fat that pulls you through.

The real problem with the argument you make is that you cannot assume that the person with the small lean mass is capable of getting enough food to maintain a large fat mass. He/she is in competition with stronger, more vigorous individuals.

So, one cannot set up the initial conditions in any way; one has to consider how the individuals could possibly be in the state you assume at the onset of starvation.

Fat carries 9 calories per gram, protein 4. So, fat is more efficient, but you have to carry it around and use up energy doing it. And, you have to feed it to maintain it, taking nutrition from your lean mass.

Art,

This really is a very interesting perspective.

Mike

I am not completely sure of this as it is a while since I heard it, but a friend of mine told of a study somebody she knows had done of concentration camp survivors. The actual subject of the study was something not connected to nutrition, but one thing the woman doing the study had noticed was that it looked like the fat individuals had often been those who had died among the first. Interesting, if true, don't you think?

Interesting peice. Very interesting read.

A couple of comments,

by what did you mean that our ancestors carried more of their energy stores in protein than in fat? Are you arguing that our ancestors accessed their muscle in time of caloric deprivation? If this is true, I would tend to think that this was a poor strategy as fat is a much more dense and efficient energy storage medium. Perhaps you simply meant that the total caloric composition of our ancentors was more heavily weighted toward lean body mass and less toward inert fat deposits.

Without refuting the point of your paper, how carefully did you consider the hypothesis that poor food choices, specifically processed technologically possible foods, manipulate a "fat set point" and thereby explaining why obese individauls who make poor food choices seem to have a malfunctioning set point?

You ask what advantages are conferred by the "thrifty geme theory" wherein people are predisposed to carrying fat instead of muscle. Muscle is calorically expensive. 250 of muscle at 7 % is fine, but would nto that muscular perosn without fat reserved starve much more quickly that a 170 person with 15% bf?

You bring up the Pima, and this goes, I guess, to my first point. The Pima, who continue to eat traditional foods are, I have learned, not obese and maintian expremely low rates of diabetes, dental carries and other illnesses. It is not until exposure to refines wheat, sugar and other modern fods that their sytems seem unable to adjust and they become disporoprtionately obese.

You associate energy needs and fat buld up when comparing tropical peoples and artic peoples. I accpet that say the San carry as much fat as the inuit, but I recall that the Minnesota Semistarvation studies compared caloric intake data and found it drops in a linear fashion as you near the equator.

Thanks for the provacative piece. It took me some time and trouble to wade through the equations, but your take is interesting.

Excellent article.

Thanks Art. This is a great paper. All the discussion of charging models for the book and then you throw something like this out for free!

Chris

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