Art De Vany: A Great Comment

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A Great Comment

November 4, 2005 11:04 AM

Parker, in commenting on my post about ST and FT fibers had much of value to say and I want to make sure everyone has a chance to see it. I don't think we disagree over any of this.

Intermittency is a known feature of hunter-gatherer life and the mix of strength and endurance pathways is similarly established. It was interesting to read of endurance athletes who operate without the carb-loading, poor diets that always seem to be in favor among runners and cyclists. They still have a carbo-loading dinner here for the St. George Marathon participants. Loren Cordain is writing a new book on the evolutionary diet for endurance athletes. And I know of at least one runner who relies on the Atkins Diet.

Here it is:

"Hi Art,

A few comments on this [my post on FT and ST muscle]:

1. First, Dorian Yates, I suspect, was most likely taking a number of substances that created that monster physique he possessed. And I don't say "monster" in a complimentary way. (http://www.treningsforum.no/article/images/musklerogmat.jpg) In this photo, he almost looks as if he has a "blow up" costume on—nothing healthy or tough about that “look”. Second, Yates was an orthopedic mess when he retired, similar to his mentor, Mike Mentzer. Yates had torn or ruptured his pectoral as well as bicep muscles (which was the reason for the short/flat appearance of his biceps during his final Mr. Olympias). He, and many other high intensity trainers, end up with chronic injuries as the body, in my opinion, simply isn’t designed for that type of exercise. Just like in the last 10,000 years, where our dietary genetics haven’t changed, so too with training—we didn’t become high intensity trainees overnight.

2. Second, even though we evolved from an anaerobic species, we’re now aerobic “animals” for the most part. And research has shown our ancestors were pretty much aerobic in nature (ref my previous post citing the article on running and ancient man).

3. And thinking about it, the paleo diet of our ancestors was ideal for early endurance-based humans: high in fat, moderate in protein and rich in vegetables, nuts and fruits. No carb loading or consuming piles of pasta, bread or crackers. Fat was the perfect energy source and as these aerobic “animals” could utilize, in an efficient manner, fat in their diet along with bodyfat, their small stomachs evolved to hold the ideal amount of fuel at a sitting so they could continue their hunt, foraging for foods or other activities. No plates of spaghetti…a rabbit or fish, some nuts or berries, and, off again.

4. Also, the prime “fuel” for anaerobic activity is carbohydrates. During anaerobic activities, the dominant glycolytic product is lactate and the process is known as anaerobic glycolysis. So, with our aerobic energy system being based on fat and our paleo diet being high in fat, humans had evolved into endurance animals.

5. As our ancestors were probably aerobic “gods”…able to cover long distances with little effort, their fuel for the ST muscles—fat burning engines—would be the various fats they consumed. They wouldn’t have enough fuel from the high fiber carbs they ate to cover the distances in their hunting and gathering.

6. Also, regarding bodybuilders and powerlifters avoiding walking, etc., you learn quite quickly as a lifter your body is looking for any reason possible not to rebuild those muscles you trained. It isn’t the ST vs. FT as much as the body has limited recovery ability: what should it repair? Does it fight a pending cold, heal a cut, generate new hair, etc. My belief, after much reading and personal study, is the body is simply seeking to restore its normal balance—and as you note in the article on the death of the NFL lineman, that balance doesn’t include unnecessary, as Dr. Leonard Schwartz would observe, bulk or muslce. The struggle is not to lose muscle, as most of us find we begin to atrophy within days or if we pursue aerobic activities…the struggle is to gain muscle as this is not our normal biological homeostasis. If it were, people desperate for muscle size and strength would not be seeking various means through supplements, overeating or drugs to build and retain muscle. That is, stay anabolic.

If you were to consider triathlete supertars Mark Allen, Mike Pigg and Wendy Ingraham, when they converted from a high carb diet to a diet centered on healthy fats as fuels, moderate protein and good carbs, all three began dominating in their distances (Pigg in the sprint distance, Allen in the Ironman and Ingraham at all distances). And looking at the physique of Allen before and after he started on a higher fat diet, you notice—as Dr. Ron Rosedale writes—that he is maintaining more muscle mass vs. burning muscle. Somewhat like our paleo ancestors.

And while our paleo ancestors unquestionably engaged in short periods of anaerobic effort—self defense, killing an animal or moving an obstacle—my bet is they were superb “middle distance” animals who had functional amounts of strength suitable for their needs.

Best - "

· Evolutionary Fitness

Comments

Posted by: Flower Online at September 12, 2006 4:51 AM

Hey Neal,

Just appreciate Art allowing for feedback and open dialogue on the various topics he writes of on his Blog…don’t think I’m ready for my own, yet! ;o)

On your points, regarding the switch to powerlifting, there will be some loss of aerobic capacity—agreed. But, I’d think it would involve more factors such as the weight gained from lifting*, the affect of lifting on your neurological pathways and recovery and the amount of enzymes associated with aerobic training that are lost. However, I’d believe the base foundation you created, such as greater arterial infrastructure, improved oxygen pulse, collateral arterial support for the heart, greater cardiac work functionality, etc., would still be there. But, even if one were to stop running and pursue powerlifting, a person could easily walk (unless you end up like a roided out lifter seen today) and probably “jog” for a short distance…that functionality remains. Speaking from personal experience, when I did devote several years to trying Mentzer’s Heavy Duty program and stopped running altogether, I could walk or jog, as noted previously, but not very well.

(*You are probably aware of studies performed showing a loss or gain of time based on weight. As a general example, an overweight runner who loses 10lbs can expect to see a 30 second improvement in his or her 10k time.)

But, the argument is moreso based on humans being middle distance athletes along with being middle-strength athletes and how we evolved for optimal survival.. Powerlifting is not a paleo sport nor bodybuilding. Doubtful our ancestors squatted 500 or 600lbs or deadlifted similar amounts. They were middle strength…they could run, jump, throw, climb. Upright athletes with activities based on activities involving movement. Where would the ability to deadlift 500lbs have benefited a Bushman or Masai warrior?

Tabatas, like intervals and/or fartleks, tax our neurological and muscular pathways in a different fashion and activate other aspects of our physiology…which is where I’d think our paleo ancestors, out chasing an animal or moving up a steep hill, would come into play. Intervals and sprinting only provide a limited improvement as you “learn” how to run with speed more efficiently (the skill) in combination with physiological changes. Honestly, I’d read that statement myself about the Tabata drills providing a greater increase in aerobics than aerobics themselves and had to smile as this was based on what factors? Were the athletes tested merely overtrained, was the aerobic training they were performing unsuitable for improvement at that point, were they stale, etc.? I agree that intervals are an unquestioned mainstay for any middle or long distance runner, but, even the great Emil Zatopek, Roger Bannister and Lasse Viren all developed a solid aerobic base before refining their speed through intervals.

Posted by: Parker at November 4, 2005 3:53 PM

Parker, does this mean that you need your own blog now? :-)

On a serious note though, there seems to be a bit of confusion in Arts position. Do you now endorse jogging, Dr. De Vany? Isn't that what you are suggesting, Parker, that humans have evolved to be middle distance joggers (I take that to mean about 1-6 miles)?

Also Parker, I am curious as to your point about our biological homeostasis tending toward muscle atrophy. Your reasoning seems to be that because it is a struggle to gain muscle mass and when you do lots of aerobic activity then your muscles atrophy, therefore, this must mean that homeostatic balance must tend toward less musculature.

However, isn't that opposite true as well? If I have good aerobic endurance, and I all of a sudden switch to doing only anaerobic activities like powerlifting, I will lose aerobic capacity. It would seem that I could make the same argument as you by stating:

"The struggle is not to lose aerobic capacity, as most of find when we begin to stop running ans start doing only anaerobic activities like powerlifting... the struggle is to gain aerobic capacity as this is not our normal biological homeostasis. If it were, people desperate for aerobic capacity would not be seeking various means through blood doping and carb loading (now some are starting to eat lots of fat) to improve endurance performance."

By the way, I'm not trying to say that your conclusion that humans evolved to be middle distance runners is false, it just seems that your reasoning on the above point is fallicious.

The last question I have is that, what do you think is the evolutionary explanation for certain anaerobic activities like Tabata intervals, showing greater increases in aerobic capacity than aerobic exercise itself?

Thanks, you seem to have a lot of knowledge on these subjects and I look forward to your reply.

Posted by: Neal W. at November 4, 2005 2:33 PM

Hi Eric,

Our closest genetic peers in the animal kingdom are the apes, who consume a diet of ants and other bugs, small rodents, competing apes and various vegetation. Some estimate their diet varies between 30 - 40% animal protein, with bugs comprising the majority. Because of that information and knowledge of our paleo ancestors eating closer to our biological makeup would seemingly better suit our performance and health.

Horses, which are a pure herbivore, are able to extract proteins from grasses (hay, oats, etc.) but their digestive system is much more complex than that of human beings. For example, humans do not have the proper enzymes and digestive tools necessary to completely break down and absorb nutrients encapulated by cellulose. (We can partially do this through chewing, but, we don't have the enzyme cellulase.) Horses do, and also have the ability to allow grasses to ferment--further breaking down the plant, hence, are able to optimize their nutrient intake on a diet of various forms of grasses.

Posted by: Parker at November 4, 2005 1:29 PM

Can anyone explain how horses turn a diet of hay into the massive muscles they have? Where do they get their amino acids?

Posted by: eric george at November 4, 2005 12:30 PM

Art,

Cordain's book has already come to print, and I have a copy. In the book, a collegue of Cordain's, Dr. Hill, describes his experiences hunting with the Ache. He states:

"...Recent GPS data I collected with them suggests that about 10km per day is probably closer to their average distance covered during search. They might cover another 1-2 km per day in very rapid pursuit. Sometimes pursuits can be very strenuous and last more than an hour... The difficulty of the terrain is really what killed me (ducking under low branches and vines about onece every 20 seconds all day long, and climbing over fallen trees, moving through tangled thorns ect.)... The really hard days when they literaly ran me into the ground were long distance pursuits of peccary herds when the Ache hunters move at a very fast trot through the thick forest for about 2 hours before they catch up to the herd... Basically men tak to eachother until the speed gets up to around 3km/h which is very tough pace in thick jungle. Normal search is more like about 1.5km/h., a pretty leisurly pace. Monkey hunts can be very strenuous because they consist of bursts of sprints every 20-30 seconds (as the monkeys are flushed and flee to new cover) over a period of an hour or two without rest. This feels a lot like doing a very long session of wind sprints... Bottom line is foragers are often in good shape and they look it. They sprint, jog, climb, carry, jump, ect. all day long..."

Posted by: Neal W. at November 4, 2005 11:49 AM

A Great Comment

November 4, 2005 11:04 AM

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