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Minger,

Great post. When I eat strictly Paleo it feels like I'm not getting enough carbs. I too thought that if I went long enough things would change, but they never did. Now I "supplement" my Paleo diet with a bit more carbs - rice and some sugar.

That's a great point about the childhood and maternal feeding as well.

Minger,

If our genes are 10,000+ years old, surely we are talking about physical fitness. Why would the genes for underweight, under-muscled humans survive a period in time when strength and the ability to recover quickly from and adapt to physical work meant life or death?

Human remains from the Stone Age show thick bones, indicating large muscles - an adaptation to their environment. If their environment called for big, strong muscles what place would a hard gainer have?

Obviously, physical strength and robustness is not a requirement for survival in the 21st century. I don’t deny the existence of hard gainers, you gave many examples, but I would like to know why they exist. I was hoping Art might comment.

i ate meat, fruit and vegetables for a whole year. if i had better judgement, i would have quit after two weeks when fatigue and sleeplessness hit me. instead i suffered those symptoms for a whole year. stupid. once i allowed glucose back into my diet in the form of sauces or dessert (no bread or pasta), i felt so much better and my vitals stayed about the same, eg too thin and 10% body fat with no central adiposity. (cholesterol dropped from eating less meat.) but my energy is so much better.

my observation is that the dogma that everyone can make glucose from protein to fuel well enough the brain and body is just not true. apparently there are individual variations in the strength and efficiency of these pathways, gluconeogenesis from protein or glucose from fructose interconversion. i theorize that childhood diet or maternal diet leaves an imprint that sets the genes controlling these pathways.

(i also think that working out in youth predisposes one to easygaining in later life. for instance, i biked as a kid and have huge legs and gain easily down there but did nothing from the waist up and have a hard time up top. how it works mechanistically, i do not know; there's gene control magic largely outside of my current control.)

be wary of letting models and theory become dogma. see what works in yourself.

http://www.mindfully.org/Health/2002/Diabetes-Parents-NutritionNov02.htm

Cardiovascular and diabetes mortality determined by nutrition during parents’ and grandparents’ slow growth period
European Journal of Human Genetics v.10, n.11, Nov02
G Kaati1, LO Bygren*,1 and S Edvinsson2

1Department of Community Medicine and Rehabilitation, Social Medicine, Umeå University, Umeå, Sweden; 2Demographic Database, Umeå University, Umeå, Sweden

*Correspondence: LO Bygren, Department of Community Medicine and Rehabilitation, Social Medicine, Umeå University, S-901 85 UMEÅ , Sweden. Tel: +46 90 785 2488; Fax: +46 90 13 79 02; E-mail: Lars.Olov.Bygren@socmed.umu.se

Received 21 June 2002; revised 14 June 2002; accepted 18 June 2002

Overfeeding and overeating in families are traditions that are often transferred from generation to generation. Irrespective of these family traditions, food availability might lead to overfeeding, in its turn leading to metabolic adaptations. Apart from selection, could these adaptations to the social environment have transgenerational effects? This study will attempt to answer the following question: Can overeating during a child’s slow growth period (SGP), before their prepubertal peak in growth velocity influence descendants’ risk of death from cardiovascular disease and diabetes? Data were collected by following three cohorts born in 1890, 1905 and 1920 in Överkalix parish in northern Sweden up until death or 1995. The parents’ or grandparents’ access to food during their SGP was determined by referring to historical data on harvests and food prices, records of local community meetings and general historical facts. If food was not readily available during the father’s slow growth period, then cardiovascular disease mortality of the proband was low. Diabetes mortality increased if the paternal grandfather was exposed to a surfeit of food during his slow growth period. (Odds Ratio 4.1, 95% confidence interval 1.33 – 12.93, P=0.01). Selection bias seemed to be unlikely. A nutrition-linked mechanism through the male line seems to have influenced the risk for cardiovascular and diabetes mellitus mortality.

Keywords: childhood overeating; slow growth period; transgenerational effects; cardiovascular disease; diabetes mellitus; mortality

fasthands,

what is "fittest?" do packs compete against other packs or organize themselves purely on physical fitness? is the president of the united states the "fittest" male in our species?

look at typical scientists (not Art obviously) or nerdy types like bill gates or warren buffet or the google founders. do they use brawn to make their billions? what non-physical advantages might selection pressure develop in hardgainers?

From an evolutionary perspective, why did hard gainers survive? Why did the genes for what appears to be a poorly adaptive response to physical work propagate? If it really is survival of the fittest, what advantages do hard gainers have that easy gainers don’t possess?

OPT - I'm having a hard time seeing where you agree with ADV on anything based on your comments... However, your comments as well as Matt's raise a question for Art. Too many carbs are bad. Too much fat is bad. Too much protein is bad. How much is too much? It seems like limiting all of these would make it very hard to get filled up three times a day.

Matt, i can back up Art's theory with evidence that i cannot send you but what i call clinical evidence used over 10 years as a strength coach.
when mid section BF scores are high, my clients post workout nutrition changes as that changes, with scores above 10% on my scores (not a hard gainer), they are given only amino acids (whey, glutamine and glycine) post workout, when below 10% (what Art calls hardgainers and i call more insulin sensitive) their post workout liquid nutrition is high in high GI carbs and mod protein without fat, and their meal 90 min later is mod GI carbs with protein based on their metabolic type, lifetsyle...
so i guess my numbers would agree with Art's as well as i am a hard gainer as such, and can gain lean mass (not easily but can) with more carbs in overall diet and post workout.
clients current lifestyle, met type, sleep, training history, digestion...all goes into that prescription as well.
hope that helps

This an interesting theory, though I would like to see more evidence. It goes a bit against Cordain's stuff that pushes a high protein intake. If protein and carbohydrate are somewhat limited under this idea, then would this be a high-fat diet?

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